What's the big plan, Alan?

IT is always wise to be sure of your facts before interviewing a politician. A casual remark that it seemed a pity to have announced the Barbican Centre was going to be pulled down just after it had triumphantly hosted the UK Snooker Championships provokes a pained look on Labour councillor Alan Jones's face.

"Who told you it's going to be pulled down?" he says.

It's a good question. A quick check of the Evening Press of January 4 - headline 'Barbican Centre faces demolition' - reveals the source for the story was Coun Steve Galloway, leader of the council's Liberal Democrat group. What he actually said was 'all economically viable bids' for the site would involve demolishing it.

So, does Coun Jones mean the Barbican isn't going to be demolished?

Ah, well, he admits, he's not exactly saying that. Nothing has been ruled in or out. "If the auditorium is demolished," he says, stressing the if, "a new auditorium will be built in its place. I don't want to say no, it's never going to happen, because it may. But it is not going to be demolished and we just walk away from it."

We're sitting in the Labour Group room at Guildhall. Not far away in the main hall a few poor unfortunates are sitting through the interminable public inquiry into Coppergate.

The C-word isn't the issue here.

This interview is to try to get to the bottom of the council's intentions for the Barbican.

Coun Jones, the city council's executive member for leisure, insists it is all perfectly clear. He says the aim is to get the best facilities possible for the people of York - a modern pool, auditorium/concert venue and leisure and fitness centre, all on the Barbican site.

But that, apparently, can only be achieved by selling off the Barbican so private cash can be pumped into refurbishing or redeveloping it.

That may or may not involve demolishing it. Of the original 11 bidders who expressed an interest in the site, the council has shortlisted five to come up with more detailed proposals. Their plans must include swimming facilities, an auditorium, and a leisure and fitness centre.

Whether they provide those by pulling down the existing buildings or by refurbishing them, is up to them.

They have until May to submit their bids so we won't, strictly speaking, know what the fate of the Barbican is going to be until then.

But surely the council must have some idea? Of the five bidders through to the second round, how many, in their original bids, envisaged pulling the centre down?

Coun Jones says he can't remember: "I haven't got details of the original bids with me." Not the most informative of answers.

But he insists it doesn't matter what was in the first 11 bids. They were just expressions of interest.

What does matter is that the new bids deliver what the council is asking for - state-of-the-art gym, swimming and concert facilities.

To be fair, the council has never made any secret about why it wants to sell the Barbican. It is broke - facing a £4.5 million budget shortfall this year alone.

It is desperate to reduce the annual £660,000 subsidy being poured into running and maintaining the Barbican. And there is that pesky promise to the people of York about swimming.

The Barbican pool is clearly already already well passed its sell-by date.

The council wants private sector funding to rebuild it so it can fulfil its promise to keep swimming at the Barbican.

However, the impartial observer can't help feeling the most persuasive reason the council has for wanting to sell the Barbican site is that it is worth a mint.

Even after providing the auditorium and swimming and fitness facilities the council is insisting on, there would still be room left for what developers love most: housing. That means big bucks.

So how much is the council hoping to make from the sale? That would be speculation, says Coun Jones. But there's little doubt it would be a substantial sum. The money couldn't be used to plug the council's budget shortfall. In the strange world of local government funding it is the wrong sort of money, to be used only for capital projects. But it could be used to build a new sports hall elsewhere in the city - and there may even be some left over.

Ah, yes, the sports hall. There's the rub because, while the council insists there must be swimming, auditorium and a fitness and leisure centre at the Barbican, it is not insisting on a sports hall.

One of the problems with the existing Barbican Centre, says Coun Jones, is that the dual-use arrangements, where sports facilities share space with the concert venue, simply don't work.

Isn't it a pity the council didn't think of that ten years ago?

"Things change over time," he says. "At that time, a lot of facilities around the country were built with shared use. At the time it was a great opportunity that the Labour group - the council - seized with both hands. A chance to provide an all-singing, all-dancing venue. We learned later that shared use isn't as good as it may be."

An expensive lesson but the important point, however, is that surely the provision of affordable indoors sports should be high on the council's list of priorities?

Can Coun Jones give a guarantee that if the Barbican sports hall is lost, alternative facilities will be provided? Yes, he can.

"The provision of a sports hall is a very high priority with us," he says. "It is not something we are going to forget. If not there, we will find a suitable site."

Will it be built before the existing sports hall is lost? More than likely, yes, he says. Then he amends this.

"It may take some time. But people are not going to be left without any facilities." He insists it will be better to have a dedicated sports centre where activities are not continually being interrupted by the need to convert the hall for use as a concert venue.

Or for professional snooker. The UK Snooker Championships, Coun Jones agrees, were brilliant for York.

So wouldn't it be worth, even at this late stage, reconsidering the Barbican sale? It would be a tragedy if anything were done to threaten the future of the snooker championships in York.

"We want to improve the facilities available at the Barbican," he says. "We would like to get not only snooker, but bowls and darts as well - all the things the people of York are interested in.

"There is no downside for the citizens of York at all. This is a win-win situation."

Maybe. But I can't help feeling that's just what councillors would have been saying ten years ago when the Barbican was built.

Updated: 10:47 Tuesday, January 29, 2002